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Orhtodromic course question...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 17:28 Reply with quote
KFC
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 342




Hi,
Having been using celestial navigation in FS lately, I have come to appreciate the NAS-1 system developed and used extensively in Russia. I was curious then, if anybody knew how the correction was made in the real instrument itself to keep it in that fixed position (Latitude correction mechanism). Without this, you need to constantly correct for course (true course, not magnetic) if you want to travel a great circle course and of course, to get to your destination . Anyway, just curious,
regards,
Macs
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Good question!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 20:06 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




KFC


Hi Macs:

What I did understand up to now is, that NVU uses grid navigation which gives you a track from A to B and even crossing various meridians you dont change the airplanes heading, but what constantly changes is the track over the earth i.e. the angle with wich you are crossing meridians, less you are flying exactly on the equator 90 or 270 deg true! If you dont have a NVU (only a magnatic compass) you must constantly calculate your course, bring in magnetic deviation (and wind correction) and change your heading accordingly.
Why the latitude correction in NVU comes in is not so clear for me up to now, but if your latitude is incorrectly set promptly the gyros give erroneous indications. Could be, that for the gyro changing from 10 deg north to 40 deg north, the gyro is 30 deg off its initial attitude towards the center of gravity of the earth and therefore correction is necessery for the resulting false indication. Maybe one of our specialists knows how to explain.

Regards

Walter

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Re: Good question!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 21:01 Reply with quote
KFC
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 342




WalterLeo wrote:
KFC


Hi Macs:

What I did understand up to now is, that NVU uses grid navigation which gives you a track from A to B and even crossing various meridians you don't change the airplanes heading, but what constantly changes is the track over the earth i.e. the angle with which you are crossing meridians, less you are flying exactly on the equator 90 or 270 deg true! If you don't have a NVU (only a magnetic compass) you must constantly calculate your course, bring in magnetic deviation (and wind correction) and change your heading accordingly.
Why the latitude correction in NVU comes in is not so clear for me up to now, but if your latitude is incorrectly set promptly the gyros give erroneous indications. Could be, that for the gyro changing from 10 deg north to 40 deg north, the gyro is 30 deg off its initial attitude towards the center of gravity of the earth and therefore correction is necessary for the resulting false indication. Maybe one of our specialists knows how to explain.

Regards

Walter


Walter,
The latitude correction, as I understand it, is what allows you to maintain that original course all the way; it is not only a precession correction mechanism as I understand it. If you have an astro compass available, or a sun compass, you could correct for true instead of magnetic (as is the case in the polar regions), (also, you don't even need to correct for magnetic if you wanted), but it would still mean correcting for true course constantly (due to meridian convergence, worst near poles of course).
I believe the trick has to do with the fact that the gyro is able to maintain a fixed position in space, so it cares not what the earth does (well, ignoring precession also of course). Now since we need some convention or reference on the earth to help us find direction, you will end up having some sort of relationship between the frame of reference of the gyro and the chosen earth reference system. I would imagine that you would have to adjust the orientation of the gyro itself a bit as you move through the latitudes, since the earth is spherical.
Anyway, that's where the question comes from really. Navigation skills and understanding are really put to the test when you plan long range courses, and specially at higher latitudes in "oblique" courses. I would like to use the TU-114 (Samdim's masterpiece), which I'll configure with an NVU and the excellent bubble sextant by Dave Bitzer and Mark Beaumont. BTW, do you know what type of sextants were used by Russian aircraft in those days? Just curious and thanks again for your info.
regards,
Macs
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Re: Good question!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 13:28 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




KFC wrote:

I believe the trick has to do with the fact that the gyro is able to maintain a fixed position in space, so it cares not what the earth does (well, ignoring precession also of course). Now since we need some convention or reference on the earth to help us find direction, you will end up having some sort of relationship between the frame of reference of the gyro and the chosen earth reference system. I would imagine that you would have to adjust the orientation of the gyro itself a bit as you move through the latitudes, since the earth is spherical.......
I would like to use the TU-114 (Samdim's masterpiece), which I'll configure with an NVU and the excellent bubble sextant by Dave Bitzer and Mark Beaumont.
BTW, do you know what type of sextants were used by Russian aircraft in those days? Just curious and thanks again for your info.
regards,
Macs



Hi Macs!

I think one has always to say to oneself: The Russians navigated always in great-circles which means the tried to fly straight between T.O. and landing. The reference was the point of T.O. and the gyros alignment there. But before landing they had to correct their gyros for "fork" which means to "bring in" all the meridians they crossed after T.O. The correction was done according to calculations (in the NVU calculator of PT-154 they are programmed) therefore they could be used without outside reference. The Tu-154M had an automatic correction via the RSBN Radionavigation, the IL 62 could do the trick also with a VOR.
Fine: Before the NVU with its dopplerradar drift and distance meassurement was introduced, systems like the NI of the Tu-124 were in place. This system needed for "exact" drift and distance calculation a constant input of the actual wind aloft. It had also a facility of astronavigational correction.
All this said I tried once to bring in the Tu-124 NI-system into a 4-engine plane, in my case David Malthbys Comet IV C, but gave up after the electric system of the Tu-124 "killed" engines 3 and 4. Dont know if that would happen with the Tu-114 also. But in theory the NI-system would be near the time, when the TU-114 was really flying all over the world.
Another thing would be the ADF: there is one ADF in russian-simplanes which has a long distance capability, its out of the YAK 42, but never manged to find the electric switch to put it into life in other russian simplanes.

How all that was in practice: I dont know!

But good luck!

Regards

Walter

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Re: Good question!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 15:38 Reply with quote
KFC
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 342




WalterLeo wrote:


Hi Macs!

I think one has always to say to oneself: The Russians navigated always in great-circles which means the tried to fly straight between T.O. and landing. The reference was the point of T.O. and the gyros alignment there. But before landing they had to correct their gyros for "fork" which means to "bring in" all the meridians they crossed after T.O. The correction was done according to calculations (in the NVU calculator of PT-154 they are programmed) therefore they could be used without outside reference. The Tu-154M had an automatic correction via the RSBN Radionavigation, the IL 62 could do the trick also with a VOR.
Fine: Before the NVU with its dopplerradar drift and distance meassurement was introduced, systems like the NI of the Tu-124 were in place. This system needed for "exact" drift and distance calculation a constant input of the actual wind aloft. It had also a facility of astronavigational correction.
All this said I tried once to bring in the Tu-124 NI-system into a 4-engine plane, in my case David Malthbys Comet IV C, but gave up after the electric system of the Tu-124 "killed" engines 3 and 4. Dont know if that would happen with the Tu-114 also. But in theory the NI-system would be near the time, when the TU-114 was really flying all over the world.
Another thing would be the ADF: there is one ADF in russian-simplanes which has a long distance capability, its out of the YAK 42, but never manged to find the electric switch to put it into life in other russian simplanes.

How all that was in practice: I dont know!

But good luck!

Regards

Walter


Walter,
It seems you've traveled a road I am looking into traveling . in fact I have thought to adding the great NVU system into DM's Comet also (and other aircraft too)! I have also wondered about how it would all mesh with the electrics of other airplanes, well now I know . But anyway, I''ll try the Tu-114 an see if it works. I am thinking of using the '124 Navigator bitmap with the 134 gauges and adding a proper navigator position. I will also add the bubble sextant. Well, I'll assume the -'114 had the NVU system on board. One problem I am having is that I cannot find the location of the VC bitmaps for the navigator. I want to add both a new 2D navigator view as well as the corresponding on the VC. One ting I've noticed also is that there is no interaction in the VC, so it may be imposible to fly form it. I must admit this is a bit of a bummer with a wide screen monitor for obvious reasons. Do you know by any chance how you could add functionality to the VC gauges if they are not already?
Many thanks again for your input Walter,
regards,
Macs
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Mixing gauges, panels and planes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:59 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




KFC


Hi Macs!

Prepare yourself and your beloved ones, that you will spend a lot of time with your PC for travelling that road.



1) I never touched VC, cause it slowed down the loading times and the framerates in my system. Therefore have no idea.

2) What I have learned, was: you have to take extreme care to stay with exactly the same version and panel if you bring in other instruments, especially the ones which have to cooperate: e.g. the gyro of Tu 134 doesnt cooperate with wind-correction gauge of the Tu 124. Even there are incompatibilities between different Tu-134 versions.

3) Having other instruments often means, you wont have all the AP functions of the original panel, or a new AP wont fly your plane.

4) Take care, there are invisible system gauges built into the russian panels, without them or with a false one your creation doesnt work or works only partially e.g. the engines 3 and 4 dont come to life with the Tu-124 electrics. These system gauges you can find in the panel.cfg on the main-panel at the beginning or at the end. Some new gauges like the groza-weather radar have their own system-gauge which must be installed also.

5) To shorten the time for developing a panel I started trying to fly the plane with another panel, from which I was planing to take out the instruments. In this way I flew the Tu-124 with the panel of the TU-134 or the Tu-104 with the Tu 124 panel, after fiddeling around with the systems gauges. In both only the brake chute didnt work like with the proper panel.

6) One could try the IL 62M panel with the old Tu-114, both have no proper FI-stations and therfore no fancy systems and are 4-engine planes. If the bird flies with that panel, one starts to merge in the bitmaps of subpanels like the navigators station and bomber nose of the Tu-124 containing the IL 62 navigation instruments and so on... at least the 124 had a dark brown cockpit like the Tu- 114. Done that one changes instruments with new ones in the orginal main panel.

7) If after transferring a gauge from one panel to another one it doesnt work often the cause is a missing electrics switch .



...

Regrads

Walter

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Merging Tu-114 and IL 62 M
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 18:11 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




KFC

Hi Macs:

I tried it out think its a bad idea, a lot of electrics of the IL 62 panel didnt come to life and there is also the joystickutility.
Therefore better try to integrate the Tu-134 gyros and diss-sytem and the navigators station (on the tu 124 bitmap cause of its color and the bombernose of the Tu 124, with the groza-radar included. Hopefully the 134 electrics wont kill the engines 3 and 4!
But the 114 was an impressive airplane!

see that:

http://www.protu-154.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=184420#184420

and a screenshot of Tu-134 Tu 124 navigators station. and the bomber nose with groza radar.
the panel.cfg is there, try it out you need the Tu-134 and the Tu 124, the 134 is still an older version (9.5 or 1.0) No guarantee, that it still works.
If you go ahead, please post your solution here.

Regards

Walter



Tu 124 merged 134 60.JPG
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Tu 124 merged 134 60.JPG



bombernose 80.JPG
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bombernose 80.JPG



panel.cfg
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Re: Merging Tu-114 and IL 62 M
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 09:41 Reply with quote
KFC
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 342




WalterLeo wrote:
KFC

Hi Macs:

I tried it out think its a bad idea, a lot of electrics of the IL 62 panel didnt come to life and there is also the joystickutility.
Therefore better try to integrate the Tu-134 gyros and diss-sytem and the navigators station (on the tu 124 bitmap cause of its color and the bombernose of the Tu 124, with the groza-radar included. Hopefully the 134 electrics wont kill the engines 3 and 4!
But the 114 was an impressive airplane!

see that:

http://www.protu-154.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=184420#184420

and a screenshot of Tu-134 Tu 124 navigators station. and the bomber nose with groza radar.
the panel.cfg is there, try it out you need the Tu-134 and the Tu 124, the 134 is still an older version (9.5 or 1.0) No guarantee, that it still works.
If you go ahead, please post your solution here.

Regards

Walter

Walter, I'll give it a try. Many thanks for your help, and I'll post whatever I find.
regards,
Macs
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 14:28 Reply with quote
ha5mvo
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 2233
Location: Toronto, Canada




The IL62 has another utility panel with lots of switches. It's not part of the "proper" panel but its there, just check out the panel configuration file.

When you copy some of the IL 62 gauges, try copying that section as well as it contains many of the power switches for those instruments.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 14:44 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




ha5mvo

Hi Micheal!

I used the IL 62 panel as it is, but did not change the electric and radio section of the airplane.cfg, maybe that and the differnt airfile make also problems.

But many thanks

Walter

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 21:11 Reply with quote
KFC
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 342




ha5mvo wrote:
The IL62 has another utility panel with lots of switches. It's not part of the "proper" panel but its there, just check out the panel configuration file.

When you copy some of the IL 62 gauges, try copying that section as well as it contains many of the power switches for those instruments.


Will check it out. I have noticed the electrics are important on these gauges. Not sure how it all will work out, but will see if I can reach a compromise of sorts. I cannot use the 124 system as the NAS is not working properly as I remember. I was told the problem was known when it was released. But the 134 can be flown without the Doppler ('ll be correcting for wind, etc myself), so it may be more akin to period.
regards,
Macs
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 16:04 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




KFC wrote:
But the 134 can be flown without the Doppler ('ll be correcting for wind, etc myself), so it may be more akin to period.
regards,
Macs


Hi Macs:

But borrow the navigators post it from the 124, its much easier to read the winds aloft then with ctrl Z!
To me sometimes the NI system of 124 worked sometimes not (S and Z values mixing itself!). When it worked it was imperative to put correctly and swiftly the winds aloft.

Regards

Walter

P.S.: if you look into my panel.cfg of the 124 mypanel, there you find all the details what gauges and switches of the 134 you need (electrics included). Dont know, what happens if you leave the diss-system out, maybe that starts the counters? You can think, your 114 had an update with the dissystem later on.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 22:07 Reply with quote
KFC
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 342




WalterLeo wrote:
KFC wrote:
But the 134 can be flown without the Doppler ('ll be correcting for wind, etc myself), so it may be more akin to period.
regards,
Macs


Hi Macs:

But borrow the navigators post it from the 124, its much easier to read the winds aloft then with ctrl Z!
To me sometimes the NI system of 124 worked sometimes not (S and Z values mixing itself!). When it worked it was imperative to put correctly and swiftly the winds aloft.

Regards

Walter

P.S.: if you look into my panel.cfg of the 124 mypanel, there you find all the details what gauges and switches of the 134 you need (electrics included). Dont know, what happens if you leave the diss-system out, maybe that starts the counters? You can think, your 114 had an update with the dissystem later on.


Walter,
I have decided to go very basic and start with a more modest approach. So I'll go instrument by instrument. I have also decided to use the an-24 navigation system, as it seems to be a bit more accessible .The TU-114 has a lot more going it seems as far as the VC goes. So I am trying to figure out how to connect the electrics of a particular airplane to any of the SCS or SAMDIM gauges. All it seems needed is a power source. I have gone through the panel switches themselves, but they seem to not be enough. So have started looking at the aircraft .cfg file to see if there is anything there. I've found an electrical section so it may help , but not sure yet.I am also looking at the XML and gauge coding stuff, just to see if I can find something (although some of it is not accessible though). I am using an arbitrary panel, a DC-6 I just downloaded which has a proper navigator station. I wounder if somebody has made a switch that can connect the electrics to any aircraft in FS to make it compatible?...

regards,
Macs
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Electricity
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 16:32 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Hi Macs:

At least you need the transformer-switches = various gauges need alternating current, which FS 9 electrics dont provide= and the electric switch for every gauge of the panel you will borrow the gauges, but look into my panel.cfg of Tu 124 Myplane panel (you can download it from the post above), there I had the transformers and electric switches of the Tu-134 installed and all the NAS-system of the 134 and it worked. You see it very easily, the Tu-134 switches and gauges have the name with "...Tu-134...".

Regards

Walter

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Re: Electricity
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 17:56 Reply with quote
KFC
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 342




WalterLeo wrote:
Hi Macs:

At least you need the transformer-switches = various gauges need alternating current, which FS 9 electrics dont provide= and the electric switch for every gauge of the panel you will borrow the gauges, but look into my panel.cfg of Tu 124 Myplane panel (you can download it from the post above), there I had the transformers and electric switches of the Tu-134 installed and all the NAS-system of the 134 and it worked. You see it very easily, the Tu-134 switches and gauges have the name with "...Tu-134...".

Regards

Walter


You are right Walter, all I needed was the correct switches. Now will have to deal with that VC...
regards,
Macs
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Orhtodromic course question...
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