WWW.PROTu-154.org
Список форумов Project Tupolev Team Вход Регистрация FAQ Пользователи Поиск

Список форумов Project Tupolev Team » Project Tupolev Support Forum (English) » Real-world Tu154 question (re. de-icing)
Начать новую тему  Ответить на тему Предыдущая тема :: Следующая тема 
Real-world Tu154 question (re. de-icing)
СообщениеДобавлено: Вт Окт 08, 2013 15:48 Ответить с цитатой
martinlest
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 20.03.2005
Сообщения: 193
Откуда: Hampshire, UK




I have been reading part of the official report (approach profile) into the Tu154M crash at Smolensk in 2010. Lots of interesting stuff about standard aircraft operation comes up. This is what it says about icing:

1) The slat anti-icing system was not switched on throughout the flight.
2) The anti-icing system on WNA inlets was on from 07:12:32 directly before starting the engines and it operated uninterruptedly until switched off at 07:35:37 when climbing at 6471m. The remaining climb stage and the whole flight at the altitude of 10 000m was performed with the system off. The system was switched off again at 08:09:58 at 10 000m directly prior to the commencement of descent for landing, and the system was on until
the accident.
3) The pilot-in-command PPD heating system was switched on at 07:24:20 before the takeoff and it remained on until the accident.
4) During the flight of 10 April 2010, the anti-icing systems operated in accordance with the technical specifications. No ice buildup signals were logged by the recorded.


Is it standard procedure not to include the slats in the de-icing pre-flight/inflight procedures. I seem to recall reading before that this is so, but if that is the case, can anyone say why the slats are not included in the de-icing routine, and under what circumstances de-icing of the slats (there is of course provision for this) would be carried out? Googling this has not come up with a specific answer - as yet....

(I know de-icing isn't modelled in the PT a/c BTW!)...

Martin

PS. Article download URL is here, in case anyone is interested:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CE4QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.derstandard.at%2F2011%2F07%2F29%2FAnnexesToTheFinalReport.pdf&ei=_8VSUvbkEaXH0QX3toCoAw&usg=AFQjCNHbETpM_L4CQSHVL086HJFOoY04kw&sig2=Y6x1HrINaj62Z6O7YfBdFQ
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

СообщениеДобавлено: Вт Окт 08, 2013 16:03 Ответить с цитатой
martinlest
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 20.03.2005
Сообщения: 193
Откуда: Hampshire, UK




Sorry, maybe I should have posted this in the Hangar Chat forum... Moderator please move it if so! Улыбка
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

СообщениеДобавлено: Вт Окт 08, 2013 16:46 Ответить с цитатой
sLYFa
Правак
Зарегистрирован: 14.11.2005
Сообщения: 84




The Tu-154M Flight manual says that all Anti ice system have to be turned on during operation in icing conditions (icing conditions are ambient temperature below 5 C° and flying in clouds, fog, rain, snow) or whenever the ice warning light comes on. There is no exception for the slat anti-ice.

However, the major threat of icing is ice entering the engine and causig an engine stall. Ice on the slats does decrease aerodynamical effectivness but is not as dangerous as engine icing. Maybe flight practise has shown that slat anti ice is unnecessary in moderate icing.
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

Smolensk
СообщениеДобавлено: Вт Окт 08, 2013 16:53 Ответить с цитатой
WalterLeo
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 10.02.2009
Сообщения: 1650
Откуда: Viena Austria




No problem that the post remains here.

Smolensk Crash had nothing to do with icing it was clearly pilots error, they tried to fly a NDB approach to ILS CAT II minimums using AP and AT not suitable for NDB approaches, desintegration of crew cooperation, duty overload of captain insuficient training of crew. Also the Polish report comes to that conclusions, Polish report differs from Russian one in the contribution of Russian ATC.

But if you are interested in deicing procedures search in the Syrian Airlines Tu-154M handbook p.4.2.8:

Main points for take off in icing conditions:

engine and air intakes heating ON after startup, Pitot heat 3 minutes befor take off ON, slats-, stabilizer- and wing heating ON after lift off


Did not yet found a special chapter for landing.

Kind regards

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

СообщениеДобавлено: Пт Окт 11, 2013 21:03 Ответить с цитатой
Fabo
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 16.07.2005
Сообщения: 1100
Откуда: Slovakia, near Kosice (LZKZ)




Hello Walter,

what Syrian Airlines handbook do you speak of? Хитрый

_________________
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Peter Fabian
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

СообщениеДобавлено: Вс Окт 20, 2013 15:44 Ответить с цитатой
martinlest
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 20.03.2005
Сообщения: 193
Откуда: Hampshire, UK




Thanks Walter. have gone on to Boeing 787s, so am not visiting this forum every day, as before! (gave up with the IL-62!).

Yes, I know that de-icing was not a cause of the Smolensk crash - I just mentioned that the report goes through what the working state of the anti-icing system during the flight.

Martin
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

Real Tu-154M handbook Syrian Airlines
СообщениеДобавлено: Пн Окт 21, 2013 15:21 Ответить с цитатой
WalterLeo
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 10.02.2009
Сообщения: 1650
Откуда: Viena Austria




Fabo


Hi:

It was meant that:

http://www.protu-154.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12378&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=syrian+airlines&start=0

As some difficulties did arise for the download, I made an abbreviated copy.

Tu-154M Brief Flight Manual PDF.pdf - 4.4 MB


If somebody wants the original it is here:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?2w95c5nvfqs8sfv

Please be patient, the downloads are big! Especially the last one, but it pays off to wait a bit.
Kind regards

Walter

Улыбка


Крайний раз редактировалось: WalterLeo (Пн Окт 21, 2013 15:38), всего редактировалось 2 раз(а)

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

СообщениеДобавлено: Пн Окт 21, 2013 15:35 Ответить с цитатой
WalterLeo
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 10.02.2009
Сообщения: 1650
Откуда: Viena Austria




martinlest


The accident-reports (Polish and Russian) went through all actions from flight preparation (which was already grossly deficient) to the crash. They mentioned the handling of the deicing system to show that the crew was not working 100 % by the book even from the beginning.

Sorry to hear that you left the strange and fascinating field of Russian airplanes for the "electric airplane B 787".



Kind regards


Walter Грусть

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

СообщениеДобавлено: Вт Окт 22, 2013 10:57 Ответить с цитатой
Christopher280
Правак
Зарегистрирован: 30.11.2011
Сообщения: 81




I've only flown Soviet/Russian planes since I started with flying in FS... Started in fact with trying to a fly a lot of different aeroplanes... Until moving on to the An-24, which I thought to be less complex than Tu-154, and it is, but heck, navigations a challenge... The western planes I've tried once in a while, but I just get so bored out of my mind with their procedures, western standards, autosystems... it doesn't even make me feel like I'm really flying something, and I suppose I will not understand why most people fly boring 737s and 320s... As for 787, there is no decent addon for it yet.

Might be unrelated to the "anti ice", but as far as my opinion goes, I believe that the cause of the crash is just simple... no visibility and the crew descended below their pats, apparently resetting their altimeter to switch off some noise? Never thought top class pilots would do this, but again, I don't know what really happened so I don't blame them.

One thing I blame though, is the media, for portraying the Tu-154 as a unreliable soviet airplane like a "flying coffin", resulting in really bad coverage, as a result of only one plane crashing, and most of the crashes, are because of pilot error or weather... The western "aviation experts" make me mad claiming Russian aviation is inferior to the western ones...

_________________
People without education, people with sickness, people with bad visibility should be able to fly. Because flying is for everyone!
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

Flying Coffins
СообщениеДобавлено: Вт Окт 22, 2013 13:46 Ответить с цитатой
WalterLeo
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 10.02.2009
Сообщения: 1650
Откуда: Viena Austria




Christopher280

As we know it better we can only try to preserve wonderful examples of airplane history.

For the Smolensk crash one can be said by certain: The only aspect which was perfect was the airplane.

The Russian and the Polish report went very far to find the causes and they are complex.

BUT: GOING BELOW MINIMUMS IS AN AVIATIC "CAPITAL SIN"!

Why this happened had resons which were partly outside the responsibility of the crew.

But as always with aviation accident reports:

CAUSES ARE NOT MEANT AS LEGAL OR MORAL GUILT.

In aviation a remarkable safety could be achieved by this strict separetion, leaving the question of guilt to the lawers.

Kind regards

Walter

P.S.: Boeing, AB ...: All the automatic systems dont help if the chips are down and the crew is not trained and current to fly without them, could be seen most prominent in the AF Flight 447 crash.
What sometimes is disconcerting is the lack of transfer of bad experiences to avoid further mishaps, so the working (and the unexplained not working) of the TOWS in the MD-80 series.

Western aircraft simulations:

There are some simulations (speaking only of freeware) which are rewarding to use:

DM flightsims Comet IV and BAC 111,
HJG B-727 and DC-9
Tinmouse B 737-200
Both Boeings with versions of the Richard Probst panel.

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

СообщениеДобавлено: Чт Окт 24, 2013 23:49 Ответить с цитатой
martinlest
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 20.03.2005
Сообщения: 193
Откуда: Hampshire, UK




Sorry to hear that you left the strange and fascinating field of Russian airplanes for the "electric airplane B 787".

Only for now - I flew nothing but Tupolevs for a month (and before that nothing but the PSS Concorde for some weeks) and feel I really got to grips with some of the features I had missed back in 2005. But I like to fly a variety of planes (I am, 'simavionically', a bit of a 'jack of all trades, master of none' as we say!).

I'll be returning to the Tu154s very soon!! Улыбка
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

СообщениеДобавлено: Пт Окт 25, 2013 09:19 Ответить с цитатой
WalterLeo
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 10.02.2009
Сообщения: 1650
Откуда: Viena Austria




martinlest

Цитата:
I'll be returning to the Tu154s very soon!!


Хорошо Хорошо

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

СообщениеДобавлено: Пн Дек 09, 2013 23:05 Ответить с цитатой
Fabo
КВС
Зарегистрирован: 16.07.2005
Сообщения: 1100
Откуда: Slovakia, near Kosice (LZKZ)




Walter, thanks for the link. Very interesting.

_________________
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Peter Fabian
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

Real-world Tu154 question (re. de-icing)
 Список форумов Project Tupolev Team » Project Tupolev Support Forum (English)
Вы не можете начинать темы
Вы не можете отвечать на сообщения
Вы не можете редактировать свои сообщения
Вы не можете удалять свои сообщения
Вы не можете голосовать в опросах
Вы можете вкладывать файлы
Вы можете скачивать файлы
Часовой пояс: GMT + 3  
Страница 1 из 1  

  
  
 Начать новую тему  Ответить на тему  


  Powered by phpBB © 2001-2005 phpBB Group. Designed for protu-154.org | Webmaster - ^COOLER^