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Real-world Tu154 question (re. de-icing)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 15:48 Reply with quote
martinlest
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 193
Location: Hampshire, UK




I have been reading part of the official report (approach profile) into the Tu154M crash at Smolensk in 2010. Lots of interesting stuff about standard aircraft operation comes up. This is what it says about icing:

1) The slat anti-icing system was not switched on throughout the flight.
2) The anti-icing system on WNA inlets was on from 07:12:32 directly before starting the engines and it operated uninterruptedly until switched off at 07:35:37 when climbing at 6471m. The remaining climb stage and the whole flight at the altitude of 10 000m was performed with the system off. The system was switched off again at 08:09:58 at 10 000m directly prior to the commencement of descent for landing, and the system was on until
the accident.
3) The pilot-in-command PPD heating system was switched on at 07:24:20 before the takeoff and it remained on until the accident.
4) During the flight of 10 April 2010, the anti-icing systems operated in accordance with the technical specifications. No ice buildup signals were logged by the recorded.


Is it standard procedure not to include the slats in the de-icing pre-flight/inflight procedures. I seem to recall reading before that this is so, but if that is the case, can anyone say why the slats are not included in the de-icing routine, and under what circumstances de-icing of the slats (there is of course provision for this) would be carried out? Googling this has not come up with a specific answer - as yet....

(I know de-icing isn't modelled in the PT a/c BTW!)...

Martin

PS. Article download URL is here, in case anyone is interested:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CE4QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.derstandard.at%2F2011%2F07%2F29%2FAnnexesToTheFinalReport.pdf&ei=_8VSUvbkEaXH0QX3toCoAw&usg=AFQjCNHbETpM_L4CQSHVL086HJFOoY04kw&sig2=Y6x1HrINaj62Z6O7YfBdFQ
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 16:03 Reply with quote
martinlest
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 193
Location: Hampshire, UK




Sorry, maybe I should have posted this in the Hangar Chat forum... Moderator please move it if so!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 16:46 Reply with quote
sLYFa
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 84




The Tu-154M Flight manual says that all Anti ice system have to be turned on during operation in icing conditions (icing conditions are ambient temperature below 5 C and flying in clouds, fog, rain, snow) or whenever the ice warning light comes on. There is no exception for the slat anti-ice.

However, the major threat of icing is ice entering the engine and causig an engine stall. Ice on the slats does decrease aerodynamical effectivness but is not as dangerous as engine icing. Maybe flight practise has shown that slat anti ice is unnecessary in moderate icing.
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Smolensk
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 16:53 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




No problem that the post remains here.

Smolensk Crash had nothing to do with icing it was clearly pilots error, they tried to fly a NDB approach to ILS CAT II minimums using AP and AT not suitable for NDB approaches, desintegration of crew cooperation, duty overload of captain insuficient training of crew. Also the Polish report comes to that conclusions, Polish report differs from Russian one in the contribution of Russian ATC.

But if you are interested in deicing procedures search in the Syrian Airlines Tu-154M handbook p.4.2.8:

Main points for take off in icing conditions:

engine and air intakes heating ON after startup, Pitot heat 3 minutes befor take off ON, slats-, stabilizer- and wing heating ON after lift off


Did not yet found a special chapter for landing.

Kind regards

Walter

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 21:03 Reply with quote
Fabo
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 1100
Location: Slovakia, near Kosice (LZKZ)




Hello Walter,

what Syrian Airlines handbook do you speak of?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 15:44 Reply with quote
martinlest
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 193
Location: Hampshire, UK




Thanks Walter. have gone on to Boeing 787s, so am not visiting this forum every day, as before! (gave up with the IL-62!).

Yes, I know that de-icing was not a cause of the Smolensk crash - I just mentioned that the report goes through what the working state of the anti-icing system during the flight.

Martin
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Real Tu-154M handbook Syrian Airlines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 15:21 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Fabo


Hi:

It was meant that:

http://www.protu-154.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12378&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=syrian+airlines&start=0

As some difficulties did arise for the download, I made an abbreviated copy.

Tu-154M Brief Flight Manual PDF.pdf - 4.4 MB


If somebody wants the original it is here:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?2w95c5nvfqs8sfv

Please be patient, the downloads are big! Especially the last one, but it pays off to wait a bit.
Kind regards

Walter



Last edited by WalterLeo on Mon Oct 21, 2013 15:38; edited 2 times in total

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 15:35 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




martinlest


The accident-reports (Polish and Russian) went through all actions from flight preparation (which was already grossly deficient) to the crash. They mentioned the handling of the deicing system to show that the crew was not working 100 % by the book even from the beginning.

Sorry to hear that you left the strange and fascinating field of Russian airplanes for the "electric airplane B 787".



Kind regards


Walter

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:57 Reply with quote
Christopher280
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 81




I've only flown Soviet/Russian planes since I started with flying in FS... Started in fact with trying to a fly a lot of different aeroplanes... Until moving on to the An-24, which I thought to be less complex than Tu-154, and it is, but heck, navigations a challenge... The western planes I've tried once in a while, but I just get so bored out of my mind with their procedures, western standards, autosystems... it doesn't even make me feel like I'm really flying something, and I suppose I will not understand why most people fly boring 737s and 320s... As for 787, there is no decent addon for it yet.

Might be unrelated to the "anti ice", but as far as my opinion goes, I believe that the cause of the crash is just simple... no visibility and the crew descended below their pats, apparently resetting their altimeter to switch off some noise? Never thought top class pilots would do this, but again, I don't know what really happened so I don't blame them.

One thing I blame though, is the media, for portraying the Tu-154 as a unreliable soviet airplane like a "flying coffin", resulting in really bad coverage, as a result of only one plane crashing, and most of the crashes, are because of pilot error or weather... The western "aviation experts" make me mad claiming Russian aviation is inferior to the western ones...

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Flying Coffins
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 13:46 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Christopher280

As we know it better we can only try to preserve wonderful examples of airplane history.

For the Smolensk crash one can be said by certain: The only aspect which was perfect was the airplane.

The Russian and the Polish report went very far to find the causes and they are complex.

BUT: GOING BELOW MINIMUMS IS AN AVIATIC "CAPITAL SIN"!

Why this happened had resons which were partly outside the responsibility of the crew.

But as always with aviation accident reports:

CAUSES ARE NOT MEANT AS LEGAL OR MORAL GUILT.

In aviation a remarkable safety could be achieved by this strict separetion, leaving the question of guilt to the lawers.

Kind regards

Walter

P.S.: Boeing, AB ...: All the automatic systems dont help if the chips are down and the crew is not trained and current to fly without them, could be seen most prominent in the AF Flight 447 crash.
What sometimes is disconcerting is the lack of transfer of bad experiences to avoid further mishaps, so the working (and the unexplained not working) of the TOWS in the MD-80 series.

Western aircraft simulations:

There are some simulations (speaking only of freeware) which are rewarding to use:

DM flightsims Comet IV and BAC 111,
HJG B-727 and DC-9
Tinmouse B 737-200
Both Boeings with versions of the Richard Probst panel.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 23:49 Reply with quote
martinlest
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 193
Location: Hampshire, UK




Sorry to hear that you left the strange and fascinating field of Russian airplanes for the "electric airplane B 787".

Only for now - I flew nothing but Tupolevs for a month (and before that nothing but the PSS Concorde for some weeks) and feel I really got to grips with some of the features I had missed back in 2005. But I like to fly a variety of planes (I am, 'simavionically', a bit of a 'jack of all trades, master of none' as we say!).

I'll be returning to the Tu154s very soon!!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 09:19 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




martinlest

Quote:
I'll be returning to the Tu154s very soon!!




Walter

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 23:05 Reply with quote
Fabo
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 1100
Location: Slovakia, near Kosice (LZKZ)




Walter, thanks for the link. Very interesting.

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Real-world Tu154 question (re. de-icing)
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