WWW.PROTu-154.org
Project Tupolev Team Forum Index Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search

Project Tupolev Team Forum Index » Hangar Talk » Pulkovo 612 and Air France 447
Post new topic  Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic 
Pulkovo 612 and Air France 447
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 20:32 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Despite the enormous difference of the Tu 154M and the AB 330-200, there are various similarities in both accidents:

Both flights were doomed in a zone of tunderstorms, seems both were in IMC without outside references, in both cases AP was switched off (by the pilot or by itself) both flights were near their maximum altitude for their actual weight, airtemperature was well above ISA, both planes pitched up violently and lost all forward speed, both came down with an enormous descent rate, the TU in a flatspine the AB in a high nose up full stall attitude. Both planes did not react to the efforts to regain flying speed, the TU understandably because beeing in a flatspine, but the AB was not spining.

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/point.enquete.af447.27mai2011.en.pdf

Now the investigators try to discover why that could happen:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,765764-2,00.html

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Pilots Error?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 19:28 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Next report and safety recomendations:


http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/flight.af.447.php

Seems Wolfgang Langwisches emphasis on a direct visible AoA Indicator is another time vindicated.

http://www.protu-154.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11897&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

But its not understandable that these copilots never received an instruction in their plane, every private pilot has to experience: a full stall.
One has to think also of cases that pilots trained in aerobatics saved flights in still worser conditions like a B-727 spiraling out of FL 350 at night after loosing part of its slats.

One point stil lacks explanation: Why could the stabilizer go from 3 deg up (normal cruise position) to 13 degrees up in a plane with "flight envelope protection" i.e. built and programmed in a way you cannot fly it into dangerous attitudes.

Kind regards

Walter


Last edited by WalterLeo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 19:52; edited 1 time in total

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 19:51 Reply with quote
Adonis
Правак
Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia




It's the thing that airline pilots nowadays don't get enough stick time, and don't know how to get their planes past their safe operational limits (i.e. they don't know their planes maneuvering capabilities enough and as you said, don't know how to get them out of stalls too for example - things that every military pilot is trained to do for example, like the ex-navy pilots who where flying that Fed Ex MD-11 when their coworker assaulted them during flight, the pilots used the plane itself as a weapon against that guy by flying it to it's limits).

_________________
Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by themselves.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Experience
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 20:01 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Its strange, one could argue, that a A 330 is too valuable to be flown like a Cessna, but the simulation technique is so advanced, they could try everything in the simulator: fly barrel rolls, loopings, spining etc. Seems its also a question of attitude of the airline industry: Fly a the lowest cost by the computer and never bend anything! And if you can hire a cheaper pilot, throw out the expensive one.

Kind regards

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 20:11 Reply with quote
Adonis
Правак
Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia




I will never support that approach, there have been too many accidents caused by pilots who where unprepared to fly their planes in abnormal situations and thus crashed.

One nice example that happened not once was pilots who kept their plane flyable after hydraulic failure using engine thrust. It's the simple "use what you have" approach that most airline pilots don't get training for unfortunately.

_________________
Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by themselves.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Training
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 21:42 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Seems something is wrong with civil flight-training in Europe. If one thinks, that US Navy pilots land solo at night on carriers with jets having only 400 hours total time, there must be a difference in training to airlinepilots with more than 5000 hours, unable to recognize a full stall pulling their sidesticks for minutes, disregarding not only the warningsystems but also the aerodynamic buffets, the change of sound and loss of lateral control.
A friend of mine was flightinstructor in Florida (he flew also for an airline) he could tell me hairraising stories of some European ATPLs attitude and proficiency attending has flightschool for sign-offs for recreational flying.

Besides that there is a seriuos flaw in a stall-warning system, which shuts up when you are really fully stalled and starts to blare again, when the speed actually starts to increase.

Kind regards

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Other prominent pilots errors of the last year
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:25 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Hi:

By pure coincidence there came out two more reports the same day (29. of July) covering the Polish Airforce 101 crash by the Polish Commission and the final report of the Spanair JK 5022 MD 82 crash 2009.

The Polish Pilots all were military trained, the polish report blames as the russian one their failures as main reason, but delves extensivly into the insufficient preparation of the pilots and the flight. This brought down the responsible polish minister of defense the same day. Also part of the responsibilty lies accordning to the polish report on the side of russian ATC.

The spanish flightcrew gets the main responsibilty for not putting out the slats and flaps and passing over various checks of the configuration of the plane, mostly by distraction of a non-sterile cockpit talking over their mobile-phones while taxying, having sombody riding on the jumpseat and discussing unessential itmes with that person. The maintanence crew gets also their coresponsibilty for executing a makeshift repair without investigating deeper into the problem at hand possibly involuntarily deactivating the Take-Off-Warning-System.
The Captain had more than 8000 hours total time and 5000 in type, was an exmilitary captain, flightinstructor and testpilot. The FO had less than 2000 hours, had no ATPL and entered airline service als civil trained CPL and flightinstructor with 200 hours. He was the pilot flying at the fatal T.O. and made everthing worse by forcing the plane into a increasingly steeper attitude as the normal T.O. attitude did not result in a climb, throttled back an engine and did not correct the resulting yaw.
The captain never took the controls and commented at the start of the stallwarnings, "how can I shut up that?".
Tests in a simulator showed, that with adaquate flying technique the crash could have been avoided, by applying full power, reducing the AoA, holding a straight line and recheck and correct the slats-flaps position.
Time would haven been available, cause even without all that the plane struggled 11 seconds in groundeffect till the first impact and half of that time it was accelerating and passed nearly the no slats stall speed. These findings coincide with a NTSB report 20 years ago in their investigation of a very similar MD 80 crash in Detroit. It also coincides with an incident of an austrian MD-83 which climbed out of the same situation without selcting the slats/flaps, but tis plane had more powerful engines as the MD 80 and MD 82 and it was at an airport at sealevel. As this happened at a Spanish airport the chief-pilot of the airline tried to convince the Spanish authorities to investigate, why the TOWS did not react, but as an incident without harm the investigation received only very low priority.

Now a long line of 33 items as recomendations came out, among them also flighttraining for after T.O. upsets.

Alltogether: Military training alone is no guarantee for having better prepaired pilots. Instead the flighttraining has to be more concentrated on real emergencies and not only the standart ones (V1 engine-cut for example). AND: Complacency is even more dangerous in highly automated, very safe airplanes (AB 330 and MD 82 are that), up to now no real cure has been invented for that .

Kind regards

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 20:04 Reply with quote
Adonis
Правак
Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia




By what you've said, it seems to me that the Spanish MD82 crew was outright unprofessional, irritated and the captain and FO didn't work well together.

This reminds me somewhat of a BA Trident flightcrew in the 80' IIRC. The FO was actually doing a crossword with the captain in the middle of the flight and they failed to see a MD80 on a direct collision course with them. They collided over Zagreb.

Bottom line, military training helps (these we both mentioned aren't the only cases where even ex-military pilots failed miserably or performed well in incidents). It all comes down to the pilots cool and ability to react fast and make good decisions.

_________________
Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by themselves.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 21:03 Reply with quote
Dion Mollert
Правак
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 64




Not sure if military training helps. It would help if the skills they have learned can be used to recover the situation. But if the ego gets in the way it only makes things worse?
View user's profile Send private message

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 21:42 Reply with quote
Adonis
Правак
Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia




Dion Mollert wrote:
Not sure if military training helps. It would help if the skills they have learned can be used to recover the situation. But if the ego gets in the way it only makes things worse?


That's exactly what I meant with my last post Улыбка

_________________
Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by themselves.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 00:51 Reply with quote
Dion Mollert
Правак
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 64




Yeah, I interpreted your post wrong. My bad, I'm sorry.
View user's profile Send private message

Look and avoid
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 02:55 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Hi:

The BEA INEX ADRIA crash near Zagreb had some aspects of looking out for trafic while under IFR in VMC, but they colided at an angle of 60 deg at a very high closing-speed, time to see and avoid for both crews was very short, even for the INEX-ADRIA crew which was warned by ATC unfortunatly not in English.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/5-1977%20G-AWZT%20%20and%20YU-AJR.pdf

Only for beeing just to the crews involved.

Kind regards

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 03:22 Reply with quote
Adonis
Правак
Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia




Dion Mollert wrote:
Yeah, I interpreted your post wrong. My bad, I'm sorry.


No problems Хитрый

_________________
Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by themselves.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Avoiding midairs
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 16:17 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Hi:
Various accidents without TCAS show, that for avoiding actions in heavy and fast airplanes a "higher instance" has the last say, as the pilots in my country express it: God has put a finger in between. By see and avoid alone at jet-cruising speed in most cases the plane´s flightpath couldnt be changed anymore. Even with TCAS the situation can develop into a midair.

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Pilots Error relaunched
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 18:41 Reply with quote
WalterLeo
КВС
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1660
Location: Viena Austria




Hi Everybody:

I have written about some pilot errors of the last years, but didnt want to fingerpoint to the unhappy crews.
Aviation was for a long time an environment, where bloody lessons where quickly and without prejudice applied for saving future lives and making aviation safer. Especially in the case of the Spanair crash (as with the DC-10 hydraulic system) seems the system didnt work: There was a serious accident exactly of the same make nearly 30 years ago in Detroit, the NTSB (the US investigation body) made various proposuals but the FAA did not enforce them. There were various incidents of the same kind reported and nothing happened. Even now the failure of the TOWS lacks explanation.
One has to accept, that even pilots make very stupid things, but all the systems, procedures and warning bells should intervene if somebody is stupid, distracted or stressed. The integrity of this warning systems should have top priority and shortcuts cause of time, money etc should be supressed by all means. And if the Crew of Spanair flight JK 5022 have had an AOA visible in front, they would have had a better chance to react differently.
And same in the case of AF 447: Pilots should always have direct access to the most important informations for safe flight: Speed, attitude, altitude, heading and AOA. Systems which process all these parameters by computers are easier and normally better to fly, but when the chips are down, these should be indicated directly, cause of them immediatly depends, if you fly or crash.

Kind regards

Walter

_________________
You think I am a bad pilot, you should watch me playing golf!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Pulkovo 612 and Air France 447
 Project Tupolev Team Forum Index » Hangar Talk
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
All times are GMT + 3 Hours  
Page 1 of 1  

  
  
 Post new topic  Reply to topic  


  Powered by phpBB © 2001-2005 phpBB Group. Designed for protu-154.org | Webmaster - ^COOLER^